We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la [Updated]

[UPDATE: Excerpts from an article from the Nation has been added to the end of this diary. Please read before you defend Big Doggie. Your loyalty on this is sadly misguided.
Search and Destroy: Gay-Baiting in the Military Under 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'
Source: The Nation Author(s): Doug Ireland Date: July 10, 2000 ]

Fifteen years ago yesterday, President Clinton in one of the more craven acts of his Presidency--after a storm of protest from the likes of Colin Powell and Sam Nunn--reneged on a promise to let gays serve openly in the military.

Instead he ushered in  a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" (DADT) policy whereby the government would no longer ask recruits whether they were gay; and in turn, service members would be able to remain in the military as long as they didn't reveal their sexual orientation.

This policy didn't serve either gays or the military very well.

Since 1993, the military booted 12,300 service members under DADT, including at least 58 valuable Arabic language specialists.

Today, the House Armed Services Subcommittee on Military Personnel held the first congressional hearings on DADT in 15 years--no doubt  because support for repealing the policy  is soaring. A recent Washington Post-ABC News poll, for example, found that 75 percent of Americans believe:

"Gay people who are open about their sexual orientation should be allowed to serve in the U.S. military.

This is a a huge jump from the 61 percent who supported it in 2001.

However, no Pentagon officials testified at today's hearings.

Subcommittee chairwoman Susan Davis (D-CA) said that she put in a request to the Defense Department:

But at this particular time...they're really not quite willing to come forward.

Gay rights activists lambasted this no-show. Steve Ralls of Service Memebers Legal Defense Network  declared:

At a time when the military is relaxing every possible standard to attract new recruits...one would hope and expect that Defense Department leaders would be first in line to call on Congress to repeal the law.
 

Marine Corps Staff Sgt. Eric Alva, who is gay and was the first U.S. soldier wounded in Operation Iraqi Freedom testified today. He recently told the Washington Blade, a gay newspaper:

We're allowing our prejudice to be put into action by allowing this discriminatory policy of 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' to still exist, even in this day and age.

In 2006, Rep. Ellen Tauscher (D-CA) introduced the Military Readiness Enhancement Act, which would overturn DADT. The legislation now has 133 co-sponsors, including five Republicans. Chief Kook and gay-hater President Bush, however, has said he will veto it.

Of course, at time when the military is struggling to recruit and retain soldiers the policy is wearing thin. A 2005 study by the Williams Project at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Law, found that as many as 41,000 new recruits could be found if the ban were repealed. The report said:

This would be enough people to entirely staff half a dozen aircraft carriers.

And it is now common knowledge that gay service members pose no risk to the unity or effectiveness of the armed forces. In fact, there is increasing evidence that many soldiers are already aware of the sexual orientation of other soldiers.

CBS's "60 Minutes" recently did a segment on whether commanders were becoming less strict in enforcing the ban on openly gay servicemembers. During the segment, correspondent Lesley Stahl spoke with Army Sgt. Darren Manzella, who said he was very open about his homosexuality and even introduced his fellow soldiers to his boyfriend.

The Army was forced to open an investigation, but Manzella was eventually cleared to go back to work. He said he was basically told by his commanders:

"I don't care if you're gay or not.

Only after the CBS story was Manzella discharged. He said:

My sexual orientation certainly didn't make a difference when I treated injuries and saved lives in the streets of Baghdad. It shouldn't be a factor in allowing me to continue to serve.

Servicemembers Legal Defense Network is aware of more than 500 U.S. soldiers who are out to their colleagues and continue to serve.

Calls to repeal DADT are growing, even from the law's original architects and supporters. As chairman of the Armed Forces Committee in the 1990s, then-senator Sam Nunn led a series of hearings that helped undermine Clinton's attempt to lift the ban on gays in the military. But last month, Nunn said:

I think [when] 15 years go by on any personnel policy, it's appropriate to take another look at it.

And last month, Joint Chiefs Chairman Michael Mullen  said that the military was ready to accept gay servicemembers if Congress repeals DADT.

A December 2006 survey of servicemembers who had served in Iraq or Afghanistan found 73 percent of those polled were:

comfortable with lesbians and gays.

And a new report by four retired senior military officers and sponsored by the Palm Center in California also calls for a repeal of DADT. This report declared:

This is the first time a Marine Corps general has ever called publicly for an end to the gay ban.

The officers concluded that allowing gays to serve openly:

is unlikely to pose any significant risk to morale, good order, discipline, or cohesion.

Also in a significant shift, last year, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. John M. Shalikashvili said that he no longer supported DADT and said:

If gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces.

This stupid, stupid policy has long been a blot on the Clinton Administration which caved to bigoty and prejudice. It meant that gay service members could not have their loved ones in their military lives.

Of course, their loved ones did appear at their funerals.

It is waaaaay past time for this creepy dead-end compromise to bite the dust.

many thanks for the round up of information here goes to the Progress Report:

http://www.progress@mx3.americanprogress action.org

UPDATE: Search and Destroy: Gay-Baiting in the Military Under 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' Source: The Nation Author(s): Doug Ireland Date: July 10, 2000 In the wake of Lt. Gen. Claudia Kennedy's high-profile sexual harassment case against another Army general (who himself had just been put in charge of investigating sexual harassment!), the mainstream media have given a substantial amount of coverage to the appalling rates of sexual harassment of women in the armed forces. But you would be hard pressed to find in these news reports any mention of one of the principal spurs to this harassment: the policy on gays in the military, popularly known as Don't Ask, Don't Tell. "You can't separate this policy from sexual harassment," says Michelle Benecke, a former captain of US Army defense artillery--and a Harvard-trained lawyer--who is the co-founder and co-director of the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (SLDN). "A lot of the perception that women in the services are gay stems from the fact that they're not sleeping with anyone in their unit," Benecke says. "The Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy pressures young women into sexual activity with their superiors by making them subject to the threat of discharge as gay." The Defense Department's own discharge figures support Benecke's contention that women are being disproportionately targeted by the policy: Women accounted for 31 percent of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell discharges in 1999, even though they are only 14 percent of the uniformed services. The numbers are most striking in the Army, where women are only 15 percent of the force but 35 percent of the gay discharges; in the Air Force, where they are 18 percent, compared with 37 percent of discharges; and in the Marines, where women are 6 percent of the Corps but account for 21 percent of those discharged. Since lesbian-baiting is the military man's best defense against charges of sexual harassment, these numbers help explain why many women in the military are afraid to report such conduct, let alone tell their superiors about antigay harassment. Nicole B. was 21 when she joined the Navy in 1995 and became a second-class petty officer in the weather-forecasting service. At a Navy forecasting school in Biloxi, Mississippi, her Marine instructor in oceanography "was constantly making antigay jokes. Rumors had circulated that I was gay, and this instructor would make cracks about 'dikes in the water' and turn to me saying, 'Don't get too excited about the word.'" Things got worse when Nicole was sent to a small base in Texas after she told her chief about the antigay harassment of a male sailor friend in her unit, who was constantly being "baited as a 'fag,' 'a woman,' a 'guy who wears makeup.'" Then someone "wrote a message on my car that said, 'You suck dick and eat pussy,'" Nicole says. "I was terrified and fearful for my life. It just got worse, and I cried every day." After Nicole finally reported the harassment to her chief, she says, "He told me, 'I just want to reach over and slap your face.'" Since three superior officers had harassed Nicole, she "didn't feel there was anybody among my chiefs who'd back me up if I was assaulted. I loved the Navy, but it's so difficult when you have to hide, make up a boyfriend, censor your social conversation. Then I got into a relationship, and that's when it became clear to me that I wasn't going to be able to deal with this, that I had to give it up. That was very hard." Nicole got in touch with SLDN, which helped her write a coming-out letter to her commanding officer. She was discharged last year, but says, "I still miss the Navy--I'm encouraging my little nephew to become a Navy pilot." Petty Officer Nicole B.'s experiences typify the ways in which even gays who try to be discreet have been increasingly subject to harassment and expulsion under the current policy. Not only has the policy--its correct name is "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Harass, Don't Pursue"--failed to diminish discharges of gay servicemembers; it has actually increased them, from 617 in 1994 to 1,034 in 1999, at a cost of more than $161 million (based on General Accounting Office figures) in training replacements for those discharged. And the policy has spurred soaring rates of verbal abuse and physical violence, even murder. * * * This disastrous policy was born out of Bill Clinton's refusal to honor his 1992 campaign pledge to let gays serve openly in uniform. In large part because of his own reputation as a draft dodger, Clinton knuckled under to pressure from the generals and admirals and their allies in Congress, thus betraying the principle of civilian control of the military and sending a signal to the Pentagon crowd that he could be rolled (as ever-increasing military-procurement budgets in his two terms have shown). Moreover, Clinton's capitulation forced the gay movement to fight on a battleground not of its own choosing. The 1993 gay-run Campaign for Military Service not only strained the movement's limited resources; the losing effort was also a PR disaster for gay politics that undercut the chance to pass the critically important Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) while Democrats still controlled the Congress. Many left-wing gays were uncomfortable at seeing precious energies squandered in combat for the right to serve in a military they disdained and distrusted. But once the issue was joined, the movement had no choice but to confront the tidal wave of slurs against same-sexers deployed by four-star homophobes like Colin Powell and bigoted politicians like Senate Armed Services Committee chairman Sam Nunn. And all the more so because military homophobia is also a class issue: The overwhelming majority of its victims are young recruits who joined up to get an education or career, lured by the bright promises of flashy ad campaigns and aggressive high school recruiting, often before they admit to themselves they're gay. Even the Department of Defense itself has now been forced to admit that harassment of uniformed gays remains widespread. In March the DoD Inspector General released a survey of 71,570 active-duty servicemembers revealing that 80 percent of those who filled out questionnaires reported hearing "offensive" antigay remarks. Nearly 10 percent said they had witnessed physical assault. Significant numbers also reported "offensive or hostile gestures," "threats or intimidation," graffiti, vandalism, "limiting or denying training and/or career opportunities," and "disciplinary actions or punishment" not of the bigots but of their victims ("for example, being punished for something when others were not"). Most telling, of those who said their "cited situation" was witnessed by someone senior to either the person being harassed or the harasser, 73 percent said "the senior person did nothing to immediately stop the harassment." If the Clinton Administration had really been serious about protecting gays in the military, the Pentagon would have conducted such a survey long ago. That it happened at all was due to two things: increased pressure from SLDN, which has documented rising harassment and discrimination in a series of meticulous annual reports for the past six years; and the particularly grisly antigay murder of a soldier at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, on July 5, 1999. Pvt. Barry Winchell was only 21 when, after enduring four months of verbal and physical assault, he was bludgeoned to death with a baseball bat by a fellow soldier. Winchell, who had been asleep in his cot, was left with his skull shattered "like an eggshell," according to an Army investigator, his eyes black and swollen shut, his brains oozing from his head. Winchell had confided to two friends that he was afraid to report the escalating daily harassment that led to his murder, because he would risk being kicked out of the Army. It was five months after Private Winchell's murder when Defense Secretary William Cohen finally ordered the IG survey of antigay harassment throughout the armed services. But even now, the Army is refusing to release its IG's report on the antigay climate of terror that reigned at Fort Campbell under its commander, Maj. Gen. Robert Clark. "We provided a lot of evidence of antigay harassment there and how it was tolerated by superior officers," says SLDN's Benecke. * * * To take just two examples: Fort Campbell Pvt. Javier Torres gave a sworn statement to SLDN that, just months after Private Winchell was murdered, his unit's staff sergeant led them on a run singing in cadence, "Faggot, faggot, down the street/Shot him, shot him, till he retreats." Another Fort Campbell sergeant, assigned to brief a unit on the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, repeatedly called the training session the "fag briefing" and referred to gay soldiers as "fags." "We asked the IG conducting the Fort Campbell investigation, 'How can servicemembers contact you?' and he told us to our faces that he believed that he was obliged to turn in as gay any servicemember who said he was a victim of antigay harassment," says Benecke. Although the IG report on Fort Campbell was due to be released on May 1, the Army has postponed giving the report to the Secretary of the Army until July 1--conveniently after General Clark's June 9 advancement to a prestigious Pentagon post as Vice Director (J3) of Plans and Operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. As Benecke points out, "This is the man who allowed the harassment at Fort Campbell to exist, and to continue even after Private Winchell's murder. As of February 20, twenty soldiers at Fort Campbell have come out because of their fear. Clark deserves to be dismissed." Retaining Clark in uniform--and even rewarding him--sends a clear signal that servicemembers can continue to harass with impunity. That's certainly the impression that Clinton Administration policy has left with many military commanders and their subordinates. Not until March 1997 did the DoD get around to issuing "Guidelines for Investigating Threats Against Service Members Based on Alleged Homosexuality," by Under Secretary of Defense Edwin Dorn, designed to implement the 1993 Don't Harass, Don't Pursue policy. But SLDN forced the Pentagon to admit in April 1998 that it had never distributed the guidelines to the field. And it was not until after Private Winchell's murder fifteen months later that the Dorn report was finally distributed. In the IG harassment survey this past March, 57 percent of respondents said they had received no training on the policy; of the 54 percent who claimed they understood it, only 26 percent were able to answer the three most basic questions about it. * * * "The new policy is worse than the old, much worse," says Professor Janet Halley of Harvard Law School, who last year published Don't: A Reader's Guide to the Military's Anti-Gay Policy (Duke). "Under the old policy, you could be discharged if it was found out you had a 'homosexual orientation.' The new policy says you can be discharged if you have manifested a 'propensity' to engage in homosexual acts. 'Propensity' is judged by 'conduct,' but that can mean anything from having a Melissa Etheridge poster on your wall to wearing short hair and a thick, black watchband to refusing to have sex with a man," she says, citing real examples from discharge cases. Moreover, Halley says, to escape expulsion "you have to prove that you have no propensity, so the only defense is an identity defense, a status defense--you have to prove you're straight." And the judgment about "propensity" is an entirely subjective one, which means treatment of gay military personnel varies greatly from command to command. That was the experience of Petty Officer First Class Larry Glover, who was discharged February 25 from the Navy after fifteen years for being gay: "I went from two commands that were not too bad to one that was pure hell," he says. Like so many others, Glover says he "didn't figure out that I was gay until I'd been in the Navy for three years--I had fought it up until then." For Glover, joining one of the uniformed branches was an escape route from both a stunted economic situation and from "a small town in East Tennessee in the middle of the Bible Belt--for me, it was a way of getting out to see the world." Glover has earned ten medals--"I rattle when I walk," he chuckles. He even has a Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal for having risked his life to save a $77 million plane from going over the side of an aircraft carrier in high seas. In his first two commands, Glover was eventually accepted by the sailors he worked with--"Once I told them, 'Yes, I'm gay, so what?' the issue went away." But on his last shipboard posting, the antigay atmosphere was particularly virulent. Glover found himself having to stand up for younger sailors who were being harassed as gay: "It was my job as a person in a leadership position. I put myself on the line every day. I witnessed spray-painting of the word 'fag,' destruction of private property or of uniforms in lockers--things like filling the lock with glue so sailors couldn't get to their uniforms, which caused them to be late, which got them punished. I witnessed chief petty officers using terms like 'the little fag,' 'the little butt-bandit,' 'ball breath.' One kid had a complete nervous breakdown--I took him off the ship crying." Glover's attempts to protect younger sailors led to his "being threatened" with negative performance evaluations. By this time he was in a relationship, and the effects of harassment and the pressure to be closeted "limits your compatibility with your partner; the job just wasn't worth what I was putting in. A friend high up in the military that I'd met at a gay bar told me about SLDN and gave me their number. They helped me write my coming-out letter to my commander. The day I heard they were going to process my discharge papers, I put a rainbow sticker on my locker." Glover, who had to give up $850,000 in pay and retirement benefits when he chose to stop hiding, now says, "I'm distraught with the Defense Department and government in general," adding, "We've got to fix this policy--we just have to." * * * Most of America's major NATO allies now allow gays to serve openly in the military, including France, Germany, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands and Canada. Denmark, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland and Israel do as well. Britain was forced last fall by the European Court of Human Rights to end its military ban on gays and has now embraced them, even inviting gay soldiers who had been discharged to apply for reinstatement. Dr. David Segal, who directs the University of Maryland's Center for Research on Military Organization--which studies comparative military institutions--says that "there is no evidence from any country we've looked at that lifting the ban on gays impacts negatively on either unit cohesion or performance." He adds, "There's no question that the direction of social change will eventually deal with sexual orientation as irrelevant in terms of the military." The Pentagon's brass hats know this is true. Aaron Belkin, who directs the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military at the University of California, Santa Barbara, points out that "gay discharges always go down in wartime. During the Korean and Vietnam wars there were about half as many such discharges as in peacetime. In World War II the discharge rate was substantially lower than in the postwar period. In the Persian Gulf War, the military had a 'stop-loss' order that suspended gay expulsions. What the Pentagon is saying is, when unit cohesion is most important and our survival is at stake, we'll keep them in. There is no intellectually honest case to be made that gays undermine cohesion in the military." Quite the reverse: The current US policy saps unit cohesion by subjecting gay servicemembers to career-ending blackmail. The hypocrisy of the Pentagon's attitude is underscored by one of the Army's first African-American generals, Maj. Gen. Vance Coleman, who retired in 1989: "Gays have been serving honorably in the military ever since it existed. It's never a problem until the leadership makes it one." Coleman compares the arguments against openly serving gays to those deployed against lifting the ban on racial segregation in the armed forces: "It's the same thing. Close your eyes, sit in a room and listen to the generals' discussions--you hear the same reasons." The right of gay people to serve openly is, Coleman says, "a legitimate civil rights and human rights question. It shouldn't even be an issue." However, given the current conservative composition of our judiciary, it is unlikely that court challenges to the military's antigay policy will prevail in the foreseeable future. The Supreme Court has declined to hear five cases challenging the constitutionality of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, and all four of the eleven federal circuit courts in which the policy has so far been challenged have upheld it. That kicks the ball back into the political arena. * * * In the most recent Gallup poll on the question, in January, 41 percent of Americans said gays should be allowed to serve openly; 38 percent--most of whom wrongly believe the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy is a tolerant one--said gays should be able to serve under the current policy; while only 17 percent think gays should not be able to serve under any circumstances. The issue flared into the news briefly during the presidential primary campaigns. Bill Bradley, who in 1993 had voted as a senator for outright repeal of the military ban before Clinton signed Don't Ask, Don't Tell into law, reiterated his position in his campaign last September and said he'd expect the military to follow his policy. Until then, Al Gore had said only that he'd implement Don't Ask, Don't Tell with "more compassion." But competing with Bradley for the gay vote, in December Gore finally came out against Don't Ask, Don't Tell and said he would lift the ban entirely and make this a litmus test for his appointees to the Joint Chiefs of Staff (after the Republicans jumped on him for that last statement, Gore backpedaled somewhat, saying there would be no "political opinion" test for his military appointees). Even President Clinton got around in December to admitting that the current policy was "out of whack" (an unfortunate locution that led to a spate of raunchy jokes by late-night TV comedians). On the GOP side, George Bush declared in the primary debates that "I'm a Don't Ask, Don't Tell man," while John McCain likewise supported the current policy because it's "working." But, of course, it isn't, as the rising discharge rates and the DoD's own harassment statistics show. Moreover, the Don't Ask and Don't Pursue elements of the current policy are continually violated by commanders, investigating officers and even legal personnel. SLDN, in its March annual report, "Conduct Unbecoming," documented 194 Don't Ask violations from February 1999 to February 2000, a 20 percent increase from the preceding year and the sixth consecutive increase since the policy began. In the same period the SLDN report also detailed 470 Don't Pursue violations, a 34 percent increase. This year, there was an antigay witch hunt at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, which ensnared fourteen enlisted personnel, mostly female. And at the beginning of June, SLDN forced the Navy to admit that for the past two years it has been sending undercover agents into five Washington, DC, gay bars and nightclubs to seek out patrons who are in the military. The Navy claims it's only going after illegal drug use, but SLDN's Benecke calls this "a ruse--our information shows they're only targeting gay establishments." Congressional supporters of lifting entirely the ban on open gays in the military are deeply pessimistic about any positive legislative changes. "This Congress is not going to overhaul this policy," declares Representative Marty Meehan, the liberal Massachusetts Democrat who is a member of the House Armed Services Committee and the ranking member of its subcommittee on personnel. Meehan says that "there's no way even to have hearings on harassment now--we'd go backward, not forward." On the Senate side, another longtime opponent of the ban, Massachusetts's John Kerry, likewise paints a bleak picture, at least "until we [the Democrats] get a majority." About all he and his like-minded colleagues can do at this point, he says, is "turn up the heat a notch" on the Pentagon and the Administration. Kerry says that "what's missing is the investigative component" to identify those who engage in or tolerate harassment, and he wants Clinton to issue an executive order for an investigation that would root out violations of the Don't Ask, Don't Harass and Don't Pursue sections of the policy and hold military leadership accountable. In May he and Senator Max Cleland, a paraplegic veteran from Georgia, sent a tart letter to Defense Secretary Cohen pointing up the failure to implement antiharassment training in the armed forces in a meaningful way. Even Representative Barney Frank, one of the Administration's most visible defenders, says he is "deeply disappointed with the way Bill Cohen has handled the harassment issue." On June 7 Frank and thirty colleagues (including minority leader Dick Gephardt and two GOPers--Connie Morella and Mark Foley) sent an even stronger letter to Cohen calling the Pentagon's failure to curb harassment "disgraceful"; denouncing the promotion of General Clark, the Fort Campbell commander; attacking the Navy and Air Force for trying to recoup training costs from servicemembers discharged as gay, even though this violates the DoD's own policy; and asking for a White House meeting. To date, neither the Kerry/Cleland nor the Frank et al. letters have received anything more than a "we'll get back to you" acknowledgment. * * * Coming to grips with one's homosexuality when already in uniform is a terrifying experience. The Pentagon has to be forced to take seriously its obligation to provide comprehensive antiharassment training (the training materials are thoroughly confused); to provide a safe way in which victims can report harassment without fear of losing their careers; and to punish not only harassers but those commanders who tolerate harassment (not a single one has been disciplined). Until then, SLDN is the gay servicemembers' only protection. It's amazing how much this small legal-aid group has accomplished already. Founded in 1993 on a shoestring, SLDN--which has already handled 2,300 cases--is today struggling along on a $1.4 million budget and desperately seeking additional funds for more legal staff to handle the soaring number of harassment complaints. Its "Survival Guide" is the only document that tells military gays how to cope with the current policy and what their rights are (the DoD provides no such material). Jeff Cleghorn, a retired major in US Army military intelligence who got a law degree after he left the service in 1996, is one of SLDN's legal-aid intake staff; he says that the organization's clients "are mostly young people concerned about, if not their physical well-being, then their emotional well-being." SLDN counsels active targets of investigation on "what they can do to minimize the risk of those investigations being either initiated or expanded," Cleghorn says. "If there's harassment or physical threats, we contact base commanders and legal officers and remind them of the investigative limits in the current policy." The group has just under 200 open cases at any one time--but the number is growing. And there's no question that SLDN has saved lives. "Just the other day I had a call from a kid at a naval base in Florida who'd been assaulted physically by several sailors," says Cleghorn; "he was in tears and suicidal. I called the Metropolitan Community Church [a gay denomination] in the city he was in to arrange counseling in a safe space, and contacted the chaplain at his base. He survived. We go with what's there--even if it's just someone who'll give 'em a big hug and listen to their problems." Bill Clinton, Bill Cohen, Al Gore and their lame-duck Administration still have six months to do something to protect kids like that sailor in Florida. But will they act? For information or to make a contribution to SLDN: Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, PO Box 65301, Washington, DC 20035-5301 (or www.sldn.org). For free, confidential counseling, call (202) 328-3244. Doug Ireland writes frequently on politics for The Nation. Research support was provided by the Investigative Fund of the Nation Institute. HomeAbout the CenterPress RoomPublicationsResourcesEventsFellowships



Display:


Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 7)

Someone posted a diary "What is your Obama tipping point"

I gave Obama slack on FISA, I was pissed at Faith based.

But, he had BETTER back removing Don't ask Don't tell!

I guy named Allan Turing probably did as much to win the second world war as Churchill IMHO by breaking the German Code, and they hounded him to death cause he was gay!

FEY! It makes me fricking go crazy!

I wonder if that is why he might choose some "conservative" like Chuck Hagel for Sec of Defense.

At any rate, that is a stake in the ground for me.

It's bad policy, it's discriminatory, it's just plain stupid.

As they saying goes, you don't have to be straight to shoot straight.


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 07:52:51 PM EST

Nicely said... (2.00 / 4)

you don't have to be straight to shoot straight

While Barry Goldwater sucked on A LOT of issues, this was one of the things he got right later on in life. :-)


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:01:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That, however, is a pretty safe (2.00 / 2)

"stake in the ground".

Particularly since this is a hearing and not debate on an actual bill to be voted on before November, and particularly since we are unlikely to know whom Obama will appoint to SecDef prior to November.


by aggieric on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 3)

Obama DOES support repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

See http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th e_daily_dish/2008/02/obamas-open-let.htm l


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (none / 0)

that is good news.


by linfar on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:25:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Question about repealing DADT (none / 0)

If its removed, does it mean the military defaults to its previous restriction against gays serving openly in the military, or do new regulations have to be enacted?


by Betsy McCall on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 12:58:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't ask don't tell... (2.00 / 6)

How about don't pretend it matters.  Sexual orientation doesn't have anything to do with anything except sexual orientation.  


by tonedevil on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 07:58:13 PM EST

But, but, but... (2.00 / 5)

The GOP will have NOTHING to campaign on if they can't scare the poor heteros with "Teh Curse of Teh Gay"... :-P


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:04:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think it is getting harder... (2.00 / 4)

to scare the poor heteros with "Teh Curse of Teh Gay".  Maybe it has something to do with losing jobs and houses.


by tonedevil on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:14:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wait, so... (2.00 / 4)

People care more about real kitchen-table issues than silly homophobic rhetoric??!! What's going on? Has Karl Rove's magic worn off?


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:46:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Steve Ralls is from the SLDN. (2.00 / 2)

Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, not P-FLAG.

Just FYI.


by aggieric on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:02:26 PM EST

Re: Steve Ralls is from the SLDN. (2.00 / 1)

I am taking your word on this :) so its changed.


by linfar on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, you should not have done that, (none / 0)

and I apologize; Steve Ralls was with SLDN, but since you took my word for it, I figured I should double check, and darned if he is no longer listed on the SLDN staff website, and is listed on the P-FLAG staff website - as P-FLAG's communications director.

Sorry for that screw up; I wonder when he made the jump....


by aggieric on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good diary (2.00 / 11)

Also, fuck Sam Nunn, who was instrumental in cutting Clinton's legs out from under him on this.


by JJE on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:05:33 PM EST

I love you... (2.00 / 3)

Also, fuck Sam Nunn, who was instrumental in cutting Clinton's legs out from under him on this.

How the hell did it take him 15 years to see that his objection to President Clinton's efforts to lift the ban has led to this madness? Well, I guess it's good he's no longer the homophobic jerk he used to be.

Oh yes, and did I already say that I love you? ;-)


No way, no how, no McCain! :-)
by atdleft on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:12:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good diary (none / 0)

I don't like Nunn either.


by linfar on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:40:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good diary (none / 0)


And yet you blame Clinton exclusively.
by killjoy on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good diary (2.00 / 1)

no, no, no. Nunn got his lumps in this diary as does Colin Powell. Clinton got a lot of pressure. But he caved--and a lot of people thought he didn't have to. He just chose not spend his political capital on this issue :(


by linfar on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:09:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Good diary (2.00 / 1)

The buck stops somewhere... not to mention that Sam Nunn didn't try to win gay support in an election by promising to get rid of the no-gays policy.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:22:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good diary (2.00 / 4)

Recced.

It is hard to believe this shitty policy has been the law of the land for 15 years.  I hope Obama fixes this soon after he takes the oath of office.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:05:50 PM EST

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 4)

It is so far past time to change this stupid policy.    It is not just a blot on the Clinton administration, but on our entire nation.  Gays have been in the military, serving well and proudly ever since there has been a military.  They should be allowed to serve openly.

It is time for this country to grow up.


by Susan from 29 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:07:39 PM EST

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 6)

Hasn't there been published numbers that they have discharge quite a few gay service members fluent in Farsi and Arabic!

GOD, the absolute STUPIDITY of that is beyond comprehension?

We make 60 year old ladies take their shoes off in airport cues, but we fire people who can actually HELP us stay safe, cause of who they choose to sleep with?

No wonder most of the world thinks we are completly crazy....


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:07:56 PM EST

As linfar notes, the most commonly (2.00 / 4)

mentioned number is 58.  That was as of about a year ago; no more current number seems to be available.

I actually know an openly gay Arabic linguist who wasn't kicked out of the military; he stayed until his time was up.

One of the hateful things about DADT is how "situational" it is; it's really mostly dependent upon a commanding officer.  No action from the CO, the gay servicemember stays in the military.  They can't even be uniform in following their own discriminatory guidelines.


by aggieric on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:15:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As linfar notes, the most commonly (2.00 / 1)

It really is dependent on the command climate. My units have been fairly laid-back when it comes to DADT.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 5)

The problem that needs to be addressed is discipline. Members of a unit that can't deal with a homosexual in their unit are the problem . . . just as if they had issues with allowing Wiccans in their unit.

I don't expect Obama to openly campaign on this issue with a loud voice, and I am not going to yell for him to make a vocal stand on this issue. I will expect President Obama to advise his Joint Chiefs to do something until Congress acts on it.

There is a lot of leeway in how Military Justice is enforced. I still remember my UCMJ class in basic training, and how the JAG rep told us that the Army did not have "Blow Job Police" . . . since oral sex is technically against the rules.

I think 2009 will also put an end to the pursuit of openly gay service-members.


NO 100 year WAR, NO McConnell run Senate, & NO GOP-led Supreme Court!!!
by Veteran75 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:14:48 PM EST

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 1)


Seems like you missed the PBS series "Carrier" that seemed to be running during prime time during all of May.

On that ship it seems most people serving on it generally knew who was gay- and almost no one (most were under 30) seemed to find it a significant problem.  It seems to be a generational issue.

The Israeli military and the British seem to have no significant issues with gays serving.  


by killjoy on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:57:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (none / 0)

Of course they know who is gay?

Jesus, why do people want to think our soldiers are so dumb and so fragile?

Here, go someplace where at any moment someone may kill you, or you may have to kill somebody!

But, I am worried you can't handle it, if someone in the unit is gay....


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (none / 0)

Or on the other hand, I doubt any soldier has ever been diagnosed with PTSD due to serving with gays.


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 04:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

super rec for this! (2.00 / 1)


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:26:21 PM EST

Here is the real problem (2.00 / 1)

When in the capacity of a job, which is what being in the military is, it does not matter what sexual preference you have, but it is also not your job to broadcast it.  This  needs to stop being politicized, by both sides.  


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 08:55:01 PM EST

Re: Here is the real problem (2.00 / 3)

"but it is also not your job to broadcast it"

What the hell does that mean?

And, we are politicizing this?  

No, we are pointing out this is stupid. counterproductive and needs to change as soon as Obama is in office.


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:09:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is the real problem (2.00 / 1)

WSB, your indignation is great!


by linfar on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:10:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is the real problem (2.00 / 1)

I hate stupidity

I hate prejudice.

Put them together, my blood boils!


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:12:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is the real problem (2.00 / 1)

I am against the policy, but I am also against the broadcasting of any sexual nature in any work place, gay or straight.  I don't think it has a place in the work place.  There is a difference between being out and letting someone know everyday.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:10:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is the real problem (2.00 / 1)

so you object to a gay person having a picture of their partner? Or sharing a letter from their partner. do you have any notion of what is involved in keeping one's personal life a total secret???


by linfar on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:12:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No (2.00 / 1)

Being out is not the same thing as broadcasting.  Just because someone is in the military does not mean that 100% of their time is spent on duty. When on duty, sexuality does not matter, no matter the orientation.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is the real problem (2.00 / 3)

How do you make that equal?

Make all the straight soldiers take down the pictures of the wifes or husbands?

Come on, that ONLY effects gay soldiers.

Plus, I think you are insulting the quality of our soldiers.

I think THEY can handle it, and they few that can't, deal with it.

Sorry, I don't mean to really attack you, but that sounds like a young and inexperienced opinion.


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Same answer as above (2.00 / 1)

Being out is not the same thing as broadcasting.  Just because someone is in the military does not mean that 100% of their time is spent on duty. When on duty, sexuality does not matter, no matter the orientation.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:26:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Same answer as above (2.00 / 2)

Then it's a matter of unit discipline.

If some soldier is inappropriately coming on to another soldier, or acting in a sexual out of line manner, who cares if it's gay or straight behavior?

ON or OFF duty?

I still think BROADCASTING is a loaded term, because you can BROADCAST your sexuality gay or straight, and both can be inappropriate and needs to be disciplined if it is such, and the military can certainly handle that?

My goodness, isn't this a lot like:

Oh, wow, we can't have women sailors on that carrier, or bad things will happen!

Just an excuse for people who didn't want the women to serve.

Sure, there have been issues? This is the real world.

But, as someone mentioned that documentary Carrier.

Try to take all the women serving off that boat cause MAYBE there are or might be some issues!


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Same answer as above (2.00 / 2)

actually, this is precisely the argument that was used to keep women out of fire departments by saying that they would have to sleep in the firehouse and Who Knew where that would lead???


by linfar on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:39:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Same answer as above (2.00 / 1)

could you point to where anything i am saying is against any particular group?


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:42:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is the real problem (2.00 / 1)

A problem with this is that military members are on duty all of the time when they are in a war zone.  There is no off duty time.  It is not uncommon for them to discuss their private lives in these cases.


by Susan from 29 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:45:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is the real problem (none / 0)

How do you feel about how people dress in the workplace?


Change Before It's Too Late
by Jeter on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 12:06:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is the real problem (none / 0)

So basically you think that there is no room for social behavior in the work place? Because that is the only way "sexual nature" would never be "broadcast."
Whatever the hell broadcasting your sexual nature means anyway.
"And to my fellow Americans I say this... get off my lawn." John McCain, August 2008
by JDF on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 12:22:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is the real problem (2.00 / 1)

I guess this means that straight people cannot wear their wedding bands? Because that's broadcasting a lot of messages? Right?


by cuppajoe on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 01:25:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is the real problem (none / 0)

to be fair, a wedding ring doesn't denote sexual orientation...then again I live in Caulifohnya.

I think you guys should cut Brandon a little slack.  I agree with his point that elaborating on personal relationships at work, regardless of orientation, is tacky.  It's not a straight or gay thing, I cannot stand it when I hear it from some of my co-workers at lunch, then there are those who I am willing to share with because we are comfortable about it.  I don't see the need for knives on this one.


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 05:03:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here is the real problem (2.00 / 5)

Being out at work does not equal "broadcast", it equals honesty, that's all. My coworkers feel no shame when they talk about their life outside of work, and why should they?, but then should I have to feel ashamed, and hide the most important person in my life, my partner of 6 years?

The issue WILL continue to be politicized and it SHOULD continue to be politicized


by dead goat on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you in the military? (2.00 / 1)

I am talking about on duty time, what people do in off time is 100% their business.  I am against the policy like I said, I just don't think the military, while on duty is a place to talk about any sexual orientation, at all.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:28:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you in the military? (2.00 / 3)

I don't want to talk about my sexual orientation at work, I want to talk about my life at work in the same way my coworkers talk about theirs.


by dead goat on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:43:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I dont know where you work (2.00 / 1)

I will use a school for example.  When in the break room or wherever, not officially working, there is nothing wrong with talking about anything to do with your life.

When actually teaching students, it has no bearing on anything to do with your job, so merits no mention.

To use a military example, when off duty not, it doesn't matter, but when on duty, it has no bearing on your job, and merits no mention.  The point is when you are working, just do your job.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dont know where you work (2.00 / 2)

Bad example. Students are not co-workers, students are clients. I dont talk about my personal life with clients.

I agree that personal lives have no bearing on your job and merits no mention, but thats not my point, people talk about all kinds of things that merit no mention when they are at work.


by dead goat on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:55:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I dont know where you work (2.00 / 1)

Brandon, just what do you consider 'broadcasting' their sexual orientation while on duty? Are you suggesting that homosexual service members flounce around their duty post and hit on every good-looking guy that goes by?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:25:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That (2.00 / 1)

would be sexual harassment, lets not confuse the two.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:40:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That (none / 0)

So what do you mean about not broadcasting their sexual orientation while on duty? I don't get it.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When on duty (2.00 / 1)

I don't see how your sexual preference matters and needs to brought up, just like person x that took home person y does not need to be discussed on duty.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:58:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When on duty (2.00 / 1)

No one has said it should be. You are the one that started talking about 'broadcasting' their sexuality while on duty. What do you think, that gay service members stand around telling everyone they see, "Oh  by the way, I'm gay. Have a nice day."

This isn't a matter of being able to express their sexuality. Nor is it a matter of having the freedom to make a pass at a fellow soldier. It's about not having to hide their sexual orientation. It's about being able to put a picture of their loved one on their nightstand, if that is allowed by company rules.

You make it sound like you think gays are going around and fondling their bunk mates after lights out.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 11:05:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Accusations aside (2.00 / 1)

"What do you think, that gay service members stand around telling everyone they see, "Oh  by the way, I'm gay. Have a nice day." would be broadcasting

"It's about being able to put a picture of their loved one on their nightstand, if that is allowed by company rules" would not be broadcasting

"gays are going around and fondling their bunk mates after lights out." would be molestation.

Thanks for helping me clarify.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 11:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Accusations aside (2.00 / 2)

I still don't understand your concern. Do you think repealing dadt will cause gay service members to act differently than other service members?

I'm sorry for putting it this bluntly, but your concern is silly. What you are suggesting is so offensive that I can't even find a something to compare it to without being totally offensive myself. Ah, I've got one. Since I'm a white male I'll use them as an example.

What you are suggesting is like saying you don't mind white males joining a club as long as they don't start putting on white hoods and running around with torches.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 11:27:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, of course (2.00 / 1)

My saying that NO TALK OF SEXUALITY BY ANY ORIENTATION IS OK WHILE ON DUTY is akin to your analolgy, clearly.  Hey Bill, hows work, I am gay is no more appropriate that hey bill, hows work, I slept with Mary.  Dont you get it, how is being against ALL talk of a sexual nature in the workplace while on duty offensive to ANYONE.

Read what I have typed, I am against DADT, but separate from that I don't believe anyone needs to be subjected to anyone elses sexuality while on duty.  Get a grip and loose the retarded analogies.I am against the policy, but I don't think ANYONE has the right to inject their sexuality while on duty, It doesn't matter what your orientation is.  God its way to damn easy to try to paint someone as a bigot then look at what the hell they are saying.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 11:34:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, of course (2.00 / 1)

I guess I'm just dense, but I still don't get it. Who, other than you, ever suggested that repealing dadt would cause gay service members to start broadcasting their sexuality while on duty? It's a non-issue. Do you think gay members of the military have less discipline or sense of professionalism than their straight teammates?

I'm going to drop this now so you can have the last word.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 11:47:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, of course (2.00 / 2)

Brandon has called Hillary leatherface, has called Hillary supporters Feminazis and said as recently as today that Hillary got where she is because she was cheated on.

Dude is a HUGE republican troll and I have no idea how he hasn't gotten his ass banned yet.

Pay no attention to him.


No way. No how. No McCain!
by spacemanspiff on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 01:49:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

All of that is true (1.50 / 2)

That hardly makes me a republican, just a democrat that does not worship at the alter of Hillary.  Or is that what you think a democrat is?


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 01:55:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 1)

yes. this is so true. Honesty is being penalized and punished.


by linfar on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 09:27:09 PM EST

Too harsh! (2.00 / 7)

Fifteen years ago yesterday, President Clinton in one of the more craven acts of his Presidency--after a storm of protest from the likes of Colin Powell and Sam Nunn--reneged on a promise to let gays serve openly in the military.

Bill Clinton did the best he could for us.  Democrats in Congress led by Sen. Nunn put a stop to President Clinton's plans for equality.  I give him credit for talking about gay rights in a debate.  I was 16-year old at the time and I really needed to hear that.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:17:42 PM EST

Re: Too harsh! (2.00 / 1)

Bill Clinton did the best he could for us.  Democrats in Congress led by Sen. Nunn put a stop to President Clinton's plans for equality.

Did he do his best, as a leader?

Consider Harry Truman's decision to fire the immensely popular Gen. Douglas MacArthur, when MacArthur was publicly undermining the President's foreign/military policies. By contrast, when Colin Powell publicly undermined Bill Clinton's policy (and promise) to lift the ban on gays in the military, the Commander-in-Chief and Chief Executive unfortunately did not lead, he acquiesced.

The President may well have given you as a 16-year-old what you needed at the time - and many others, too - but if you are making a utilitarian argument, you have to also consider the flipside: the thousands of honorable men and women in the military who have been hounded and harrassed, the careers that have been ended, the careers that never began, because of the institutional discrimination against gays in the military. Unlike Truman, President Clinton was an extremely talented and persuasive orator. He could have stood up and made the argument.  He could have said that the United States has the best military in the world, and no good military man or woman would ever let their personal biases or squeamishness compromise their effectiveness as a member of the military. Period.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 12:34:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too harsh! (none / 0)

Rob, I agree with you. No question Clinton met with strong resistance. But he had the chops to take it out. He chose not to do that. As I said before. He decided this is not where he would spend some of his political capital.


by linfar on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 11:32:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too harsh! (2.00 / 1)

Truman had the support of his party. Clinton did not. This difference is important. When Nunn was going against gays, many Dem congresspeople were doing the same routine. Clinton was basically left out on a limb by his own party. I admire Bill Clinton for still getting the best deal possible under these circumstances. And despise Nunn and all who stood with him.


by DaleA on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 11:49:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too harsh! (none / 0)

Certainly, even if Clinton had stood up as I would have liked, in the end, he may very well not have been able to win over Congress on this issue.  We're in agreement on this.  Leaders do not always succeed in accomplishing all of their goals. I simply contend that he could have stood up and said something like "I do not have the authority to decide this issue. Congress has that authority. I can only make the case, in no uncertain terms, to the Congress and to the American people, why it is in the very best interests of our country and our military to lift this ban. And when history looks back on this day, let there be no doubt as to where I and every leader in Washington stood on the issue of ending discrimination against gay Americans in our military."

If he had said that, this diary and this thread would not exist.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 03:08:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too harsh! (2.00 / 1)

Please, do you know anything about the situation at the time?

President Clinton did not have his party's support as Truman did.

Colin Powell was the first AA is such a position -- can you imagine the tornado that would have occurred should he have been fired?

President Clinton did a courageous thing -- it was not possible for him to do what Truman did (see my comments above for the full story).

He inspired many people with this act -- the first act of his presidency which lost him a lot.

But all some can do is bash a man who had the courage to do what NO ONE ever even thought about before in that office he held. Even Carter in his final days as president allowed homosexuals to be persecuted and thrown out of the military. That's leadership.

Clinton led the way with his courage and with his ability to talk about a topic that others refused to touch.

Just shouting "caved, caved, caved, nya nya nya" will not change history and will only serve to bash a good man.


by cuppajoe on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 01:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too harsh! (none / 0)

Just shouting "caved, caved, caved, nya nya nya" will not change history and will only serve to bash a good man.

It would also be undignified. ;-)

There's a vast chasm between bashing President Clinton, and taking issue with his stand on a  particular policy, which is what I did.

I wouldn't expect Powell to have been fired - I think he had just about retired from his position anyway by that time. The parallel I was drawing was not that he should be fired, but that he, like MacArthur, was an extremely popular figure, who was taking a position that directly undermined his boss. Ouch. It's no doubt politically risky for a president to take a very public stand that is diametrically opposite the views of very popular general, on a military issue. But that is what Truman did. As I mentioned above, if Clinton had stood his ground in opposing the ban, that's certainly no guarantee he would have succeeded in convincing Congress. Either way, had he stood his ground, I have no doubt you and I today would both be saying "There was a profile in courage" - instead of just one of us saying it.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 06:02:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too harsh! (2.00 / 1)

Well, we can agree to disagree.

I think Bill Clinton presented us with an amazing profile in courage.

He did what he had to do and compromised when he had to. At least he didn't change his mind on the issue. He settled for a compromise (an imperfect one, but what compromise is perfect?) that at least pushed the issue to where it is now. And DADT will be repealed.

I admire him for his courage and for all that he did for all sorts of people while he was president and after.


by cuppajoe on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 08:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 2)

"Sexual orientation" does matter if you are one of the many women in the military being raped, sexually abused and humiliated by some pretty sick men in uniform who think think their self-identification as heterosexuals excuse unprovoked attacks. Ironic that this is the same reason that was given during those hearings of why you couldn't have homosexuals in the military. They would physically abuse people of their own gender, especially in submarines! Having politicians and even military commanders who believe this about homosexuals is embarrassing enough. Having to have the entire world watch those hearings was one of the lowest points in the history of this country. It is way past due to stop this shameful policy, and start reinforcing that serving in the military or any other function of this country does not permit the sexual harassment or abuse of any co-worker.


Change Before It's Too Late
by Jeter on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:46:24 PM EST

Honestly (none / 0)

What does someones sexual orientation have to do with being raped, sexually abused or humiliated by men?


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Honestly (2.00 / 1)

That was my point. Was that not clear?


Change Before It's Too Late
by Jeter on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 11:56:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 1)

Thank you, Jeter! I listened to those hearings too, and was amazed at the SSgt who mentioned serving on submarines.
There's all kinds of sexual misconduct going on right now, as you mentioned (and has been going on for years) between heterosexuals, and he's worried about gay men on a submarine for god's sake...
For perspective, I've read that about one third of women serving in Iraq have been raped, sexually assaulted, or harassed by their male counterparts.
Kudos to the gay Navy captain and the gay Marine who testified.
by skohayes on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 07:25:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 2)

You are absolutely correct on the mistreatment of women and the sexual harassment up to and including rape by hertosexual men of women in the military. When talking about gays in the military under clinton it was almost as if straight men feared gay men would treat them the way they treat women!


by linfar on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 11:34:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (none / 0)

61% supported it even then?  That's surprising - with that margin you wouldn't think a cave would have been necessary.  


by rfahey22 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:48:12 PM EST

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (none / 0)

Whoops - I didn't realize that that was from 2001.


by rfahey22 on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 10:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 2)

In your  diary you said:
"Fifteen years ago yesterday, President Clinton in one of the more craven acts of his Presidency--after a storm of protest from the likes of Colin Powell and Sam Nunn--reneged on a promise to let gays serve openly in the military.

Instead he ushered in  a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" (DADT) policy whereby the government would no longer ask recruits whether they were gay; and in turn, service members would be able to remain in the military as long as they didn't reveal their sexual orientation."

I have to set a bit of your history straight (so to speak). And I can't stand by and see President Clinton yet again badly teated.

For the record, I'm a gay man who has worked and continues to work in the gay movement here in Philly. I have written extensively in the gay press and many of my writings are included in a number of anthologies and encyclopedias.

You call President Clinton's act "craven" and say he caved on a promise, yet you don't, I believe, know the full story.

Yes, he promised to end the anti-gay policy in the military. And he mistakenly thought that he could, like Harry Truman, just issue an executive order to change military policy (Truman's order referred to race, of course).

What neither he nor his supporters realized was this: sexual orientation unlike race is written into the Uniform Code of Military Justice (which is written by Congress and can only be changed by Congress). So he could not issue an executive order to allow gays/lesbians to serve freely.

Congress, especially pigs like Nunn and others, knew this very fact and knew they could cut him off at the pass. Which they did.

So, the DADT compromise was worked out and as we all know was a failure from the start. But it was a compromise that President Clinton felt he had to make (we never know the consequences until we try something) so that he could at least keep a vestige of his promise.

The Clinton Administration was the very best one in the history of the US for gays/lesbians -- if you dispute that, you are dead wrong. Despite DADT (and even DOMA which was another compromise to fend off a worse threat) -- President Clinton and Hillary Clinton did more for gays and lesbians than any other administration in history. This is only one reason Hillary and Bill are beloved in gay communities around the country.

The real culprits were the homophobes in Congress. They forced his hand by refusing to change the Military Code.

Oh, and another bit of history: the Carter administration helped promulgate the anti-gay military policies in 1981 (the last week of his administration). See:
http://www.glinn.com/news/tline5.htm


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 23, 2008 at 11:52:52 PM EST

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (none / 0)

I understand your position. But I disagree. Many, many people believe Clinton had the political muscle to get Congress to accomodate his policy. Once again, Clinton chose not to spend a lot of politcal capital doing so. He caved. And a lot of people suffered. I don't know if you watched the "debate"--I watched them all :)--with gay quetioners. Etheridge expressed what millions of gays felt about don't ask, don't tell. It was a sell out. And Hillary is reported to have opposed the compromise at the time. Who knows? I do give Clinton credit for wanting to make the change. But he refused to take a stand on principle. As he did on many other issues. It was his way.


by linfar on Thu Jul 24, 2008 at 11:41:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We Be Gay, tra-la, tra-la (2.00 / 1)

Sorry but it's not a "position" it's a fact.

He spent a lot of political capital just bringing it up -- if you recall it was the first thing he did.

Do you apply your purity standards equally? Aren't there others who have failed your tests and sold out?

President Clinton did not have the political muscle to do what you think. He was newly in office. There were much more powerful Congressional Thugs who took offense at the new man trying to do something they opposed. A dose of reality would help you understand this better.

I watched every debate. Every one. And since when does Etheridge speak for all of us and how do you know that she possed all the facts and historical information to make the statement she did or ask the question she did?

There were a lot of people upset -- but they were also uninformed about the facts and realities of the situation. When those who chose to began to understand the situation, they felt differently.

Of course a lot of people suffered -- but ever since gay/lesbians began speaking their minds and asking for equality, people have suffered and died. That is sometimes the price of progress. It's not pretty but it's a fact.

I've been in the trenches in this movement and still am -- I've been spat upon, basjed, harassed, have seen friends die or be made to suffer horribly, and more. But I helped change things. And that's just what Bill Clinton did.

I can never call it a sell out -- just putting it on the table as the first act of his presidency was a selfless act. He spent and lost a lot on that move alone. I give him a lot of credit.

Why hate a man who did t